Because you're one step closer, and to me, that's what sports are all about. That's what taking the hard knocks, losing failure, sidestepping missteps, all those are just one step closer to getting to becoming who you want to become to be able to achieve what you wanted to achieve.
Guys, today we have a very, very special guest and she has been called one half of the greatest beach volleyball team of all time and it is Kerri Walsh Jennings, she's a three-time Olympic gold medalist, a five-time Olympian. And she's just a legend. And she's been so successful in beach volleyball, and she is wildly experienced and talented and hardworking and competitive. And I love that fire in her.
But what I also love is her ability to be vulnerable to pull back the curtain, and talk and just be real and talk about the things that matter. What I loved about this interview is we really went deep. Sure we talked about mindset, we talked about routines, finding flow, and finding joy.
And, you know, what I talked to a lot of athletes and a lot of humans about is the ability to care about the process. Sorry to care about the results, but also focus on the process, which, you know, on the highest stage in the world and the Olympic Games, the fact that she was able to do that is endlessly fascinating to me. And she talks about that in this interview.
But I think one of the things that is cool about this interview is we don't just talk about sports, we talk about how high performance and mindset work permeates all aspects of her life. And in particular, how she does it being a mom of three, and a wife, and a human and her organization, which is p 1440. We talk about all of it.
This interview guys, I'm so excited about it. I know you're gonna love it, I hope you share it with people. I think I'm gonna go back and listen to it multiple times. Because Kerri just has a way of sharing so much wisdom in a way that is so relatable, and so real. So, I will stop talking so you can listen to Kerri because this interview rocks.
All right, Kerri Walsh Jennings, I am so happy to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for having me. I'm pretty fired up as well.
Oh my god, I've been listening to like some of your recordings. I've been watching your games and like, I have so much to talk about. I don't know if we're gonna be able to cover it all. But I wanted to jump right into it if that's okay.
Yeah, let's do it. I will follow your lead happily.
So are you watching the Winter Olympics? Is that something that you're into?
I love the Olympics in my heart. But I haven't watched one minute yet. I need to get on that.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking I was like, she either loves it, or is like, I've done that. You know.
Life is so madness right now. I don't turn on the TV too much. So yeah.
I know, I get that. So I wanted to start in that mode of like watching people compete at such a high level. And so much of my work with athletes is like, similar to, and thinking that you're like this based on what I know. And I was definitely like this. I was watching Mikaela Shiffrin, the alpine skier and she skied out twice. And, like the idea that failure is like, right there all the time. Like, that's why we watch. That's why we play. And yet this idea that we can, I'm kind of talking broadly here. But the idea that like, when we're younger, we often have the sense of, I would say at least a lot of the great athletes have this sense of like, nothing's ever good enough, Perfectionism. We can't be, we can't fail. And like a fear mentality. And then it seems like the greats then learn at some point that only gets you so far.
And you have to sort of lead with love. And I was watching her and I was thinking about you. And lets like the Yin Yang, like, you can't say, well, it doesn't matter. Who cares, you know, winning doesn't matter, like people who say that don't understand, right? And yet, those moments happen. And even in a small way, and it's like, I'm interested in how you deal with it now. Maybe how you dealt with it when you were younger? And like your evolution of like caring about the results so much that you're willing to sacrifice so much. And yet in the moment, trying not to care.
Oh my gosh.
yeah, well it applies to every single human on Earth, no matter if you're an athlete or not, so it's a very valuable question. And I think people who hate losing are some of my favorite people. They care so much. To me, it takes great courage and vulnerability, to be sad when you lose and to express yourself and talk about wanting to win. You know, I think that's Powerful.
Did we freeze? Are we okay?
But at the same time, it's like, okay, there's so much to say. So for me growing up until I was like, 30. Well, until the Rio Olympics fear of failure drove me to be so gnarly, like gnarly, right. And it was something that motivated and inspired me. And it made me better for that long. And then after Rio, where I suffered the biggest, most heartbreaking loss I've ever had in my life, my whole identity was rocked.
You know, I felt like a failure, this shame that I had in losing when I fancied myself a great competitor, a gamer, who wins the Olympics doesn't get bronze, like, that rocked me. And so moving forward, after that loss, the fear of failure became so big that it started to minimize me, and not empower me and inspire me to work harder to be better. It like started to shrink me.
And so me leaning on that as a strategy to improve, like didn't work anymore. And, and so led me into kind of a, it's not really surrender, it's kind of detachment, where you know what you want, but you're just gonna go there and do your best and let the results be what they be. Like. It's such a funny, it's such a hard dance, because when you talk like that to elite athletes, they're like, screw, I'm here to win. I'm here to dominate. I’m here to be perfect.
But at the same time, we all know, I believe at our best, we're more playful. We're more in the moment. We're having more fun, rather than just focusing on the result. Do you know what I'm saying? And so for me, I think perfection is just such a fallacy. I was listening to a podcast yesterday with Andrew Huberman, an incredible podcast. And he was talking about the power of play, and how when we're younger, and start sparks, starting to learn new things. That play is so important because that's how our brain figures out contingency plans.
And if this happens, Hi beauty.
We have a surprise visitor who's supposed to upstairs having snacks.
You have the nicest dress I've ever seen. Is it a special Thursday, you get to wear a dress?
Yeah, it's a Christmas dress that we just put on whatever one.
I like it. Don't wait for special occasions, that's for sure. She's so cute.
Huberman talking about joy. It's so fun because I had that on my list too. Talking about joy.
Well, it was not necessarily joy, it was play. The importance of play. And obviously, we're more joyful. We're more silly, we're more creative, and we're less focused on perfection when you're playing. And, to me, it's so valuable because I've lived Olympic experiences where I'm only focused on the result. And for years, I was miserable. Winning, a lot but my life suffered. And my soul suffered, but we won. And winning is so fleeting. Life is forever.
So anyhow, there are so many different ways I can go to this. But like, we're seeing Mikayla, I just saw the kind of replays and the images of her head down, like, head and hand and I'm like, God, that girl, like, that just hurts my heart, I've been there. And to me, when I equate that with personally, it brings me back to a moment of deep shame. And I hope she doesn't have that.
Because what we do know and learn when you're a professional athlete when you've been doing it for 30 years is that its part of the damn process. And everything is there to serve us. And it doesn't define you all these things that we've heard a million times. They're so true, you know. And to me, I didn't see her post-race interview, but I hope she says something like, I gave her my best. I fell short. And I'm going to continue powerfully. And my heart is broken right now. All these things can happen at the same time.
And so but to me the lesson is, our job is to show up and do our best period, that's all we can control. You know, and so I think when you're a winner, and you're used to winning, the shame that you feel when you lose is gnarly, you know, but what a great responsibility it is to be a winner and a champion that you feel that way.
Well, I've never had a coach that used to say play so hard to win that hurts so bad to lose. And I think that we were talking about that like sense of being so courageous that you are willing to put everything on the line your entire ego and, and it knows that there's a time when it's not everyone's going to do the however many wins, you have MIsty had, like most people aren't going to do that. And even that ends at some point.
So you're gonna have those moments and I was listening to one of your other interviews and I want to hear from you like that bronze medal and I know you talked about how proud you were after and I just I'm interested in that whole process of like, because that’s what she's doing right now. I mean, hopefully she has a come back, Mikayla, maybe you can't, who knows? But that's a tremendous amount of pressure she was under. And then the shame, she apologized to people.
And so like that sense of like, take me back to that moment when you guys sorry, when you lost the semi finals and how you reacted, because that's what we're talking about really that ability to care so much that it hurts and also bring love into that self-love and self-compassion into that moment. Like how did you do that?
Well, it took me like five years to figure it out. Like, truly I played in fear for at least three years after Rio. Like I'm like, Oh, they found me out, I'm an imposter. Like, I don't deserve any of my previous success. Like it rocked me to my core. So to hear that Mikayla apologized, I 100% resonate with that, like I did that, after we lost to the match that would take us to the bronze or the gold, I literally had, I could not look my family in the face. I couldn't look April’s family in the face. I was so sad that I let them down.
It was so gnarly. And of course, they hug you, way to fight to do these things. Tomorrow's the day, in a moment, though I couldn't hear it. I was fully devastated. And I think it's like what your coach said, say that quote again.
I don't know, I don't think he came up with it. But I don't know who to credit, play so hard to win, that hurts so bad to lose.
Yes. And so the hurting, it's not like, I feel like some people might interpret that as like, I need to work harder, I need to run through walls, I need to like step up injuries. It's like, that's not it. It's not the physical part. It's the ego death part. It’s the heartbreak part. Like, I think to be great at anything to pursue anything meaningful, even if it's this big. It's like you have to be willing to put your heart on the line and to suffer the heartbreaks that come with that risk. It's a risk but then do it again, again and again.
And again, you got to see your face and you just have to know that this is part of the process. And so for me when my kids fall down or if they feel shame because they didn't win the race or missed the layup or whatever might be, this is gonna make you so good. Like you don't understand and then listen to this, this like rocked my world.
Okay, so David Meltzer. He's like an entrepreneur. Amazing. You know, he's like a life coach. He's an inspirational person, he was like, okay, so imagine all of you guys are chasing your biggest dreams. And in order to make your dream come true, you know that you're gonna get 50 no’s before you get your Yes. With every No, you're gonna celebrate it. Because you're one step closer. And to me, that's what sports are all about.
That's what taking the hard knocks, losing failure, sidestepping missteps, all those are just one step closer to becoming who you want to become, to be able to achieve what you wanted to achieve. If you have that mindset, the process mindset, beginner's mindset, that they're all there to serve me mindset.
I mean, I think that's why I love … I mean, I love athletics in general, I love being an athlete. I love talking to athletes, too, because it's like, I think people that haven't played, and it's really at any level, because at any level you can feel pressure, I think people don't understand how mental it is. Like I’ve heard you say this too … I mean, it's hard, because I'm sure you put yourself to the limits, and you've done it for many, many years. And you do it when you don’t feel like it and all that. But like, that's not really it, like, the mental stuff is so much more challenging to keep going.
Yeah, well, every level Lindsey like, AYSO level, you know, because you have people looking at you. And so for me, it's like the conversation is like, yeah, you're here to compete, and you're here to do your best. And that sounds kind of foofy and not like gnarly enough. But that's like the bottom line. You're talking NBA, NFL, whatever it is, that's the bottom line. And it's not just showing up on the game day, it's showing up every day leading up to game day.
With your body intact, doing what you do there with the self-talk that supports a process and personal development mindset as you pursue these things. You know, so yeah, I think the mental and the emotional part is the hardest times a million. It's like the hardest thing in my life is nutrition. By far, more than the working out in the discipline to get up at 4:30 It's like the nutrition part of it's hard being disciplined there. So it's just different challenges within each challenge.
And to me what allows you to sustain what allows you to find who you are and to create a semblance of joy within these things, is that you have a purpose in it and that you love yourself through the process of it. Otherwise, you're screwed if you don't love yourself, you hate yourself because you're having you're in a funk right now. Like you're jumping on the other team. You're fighting against yourself.
Do you look back on your career and clearly said that was a turning point from a mental standpoint, do you think you could have learned any of these lessons earlier? I mean, I don't mean that you have regrets, because that's just, it all led me to the amazing person that you are today. But like, when you look at these younger athletes that you're working with this p 1440, which we'll talk about later, but like, do you see that you could have learned it earlier? Or? Cuz I look back on my career and learn a lot of this stuff. I think I was like, just work harder, just push yourself. Just, if we're down, give me the ball. I'm going for it. And like that worked, liked we talked about, until it doesn't. I’m just wondering if you think you could have learned that even younger, or...
I do, I totally do. I think it's the conversation that coaches and parents have, and that just needs to happen earlier in life. Because usually, we all get to this point, because we suffered so much the better way. And so within 1440, like you mentioned that we train them in volleyball, but we also wanted to give them the mental and the emotional skills and the self-awareness, where if they realize they're being the worst inner critic, and they're hating themselves, they can be like,
Oh, that's not a good thought, that thought is not serving me, I'm gonna pick a new one, and it's just, I feel like, we just need to have these conversations within our school system with our children, about the power that we have within to create our outside environment. Right. And that we have to understand that greatness takes time, that is a process that learning anything, like this blew my mind as well, like, and I'm a botch saying but Andrew, and he just gives me so much knowledge.
And he says that the process of learning inherently and on purpose is a process of agitation. Because agitation, so it bugs you, it irritates you on purpose, because the agitation creates a sense of urgency and focus.
Right? So if kids knew that instead of like the moment, they get frustrated, as I feel like oh, I'm onto something that matters to me, You know what I'm saying? That, to me, that's like, an epiphany, and the fact that it's supposed to be hard. Like, for some reason, in high school and college, I thought everyone else had an easy that when I had a tough time, I was lacking.
Like, no, like, that's, it's so false, but I think that's what happens when you try to problem solve only internally when you don't lean on your people. Your teammates say, Hey, I'm nervous. Are you nervous? Hey, Coach, you know, I'm struggling with this helped me out, hey, teach, like, this is hard for me. Like you realize that you have a support system outside of you. And they're going to encourage you to stick with it.
Well, I think, you know, in the sort of microcosm of that is that well, you've mentioned it is like, I see so many athletes, I think you and I've talked about this, too, is like so many athletes think they're the only ones to feel nervous.
And that being nervous means there's something wrong I mean, I'm sure Kerri Walsh Jennings was a little nervous going into gold medal matches. And it's like, that pumps you up like you can use that in a good way. And it's all about how you think about it. There's some really interesting research, I don't know if you've seen this, about how we interpret stress affects how our bodies respond to it.
How we interpret everything. You know, and there's another kind of analogy that a lot of high-performing coaches talk about. And they say, when the lion is on the hunt, with a gazelle and the gazelle is fleeing, and the lion is chasing, physiologically, the same things are happening within.
But only one is choosing to be there, so it's like, at the moment, raise your hand for that moment, I choose this moment, even if it's like, even if it's a terrible moment that you like if you're playing the worst game of your life, right? Like, you can either be like, like, so ashamed, or you can be like, I'm here, I'm choosing this, I'm choosing to battle, and your whole physiological system changes. Your attitude, your focus, you take a deep breath, like instead of being tunnel visioned, you open up.
So it's like, we find ourselves in situations in life. And instead of being victimized by it, thinking more or less thinking, we can't get through it, we have to raise their hand for it, because you're there anyway.
The reframing is like the simplest thing you can do, and like, it switches everything, to me, kind of brings me back to that quote from Billie Jean King about pressures of privilege. And like even more than a privilege, it's like you said, you're choosing it. You’re not the victim, like, what is a life without any pressure? What is a life without any times when you're nervous or scared?
No growth? No, you're not going to be soft, you're not going to be challenged, you're going to stay right where you are. Like, we sign up for these things and like them back to your point about pressure, and nerves. It's like, it's exactly what you just said. It's what you frame it to me. I'm like when I feel my butterflies flying in my tummy and like, oh, I'm excited. Whereas before for 30 years, or 25 years, I was like, I hate that I'm so nervous. I hate it.
And then someone told me if you think you're nervous, you're one are the best in the world. Think about your damn opponents because I'm nervous for every game. I'm nervous. I practiced the other day Lindsey, for the first time since June. And I was nervous. Like, just for practice with me and one coach, nervous as hell. But that means I was so excited.
And so I started to embrace the butterflies. And to realize that that's part of me, I can't hate myself. For it, I have to love the parts of myself that I think are lacking. I have to love the parts of myself that are anxious, that are weaker, that are ignorant, because if I love them, then there's a chance to improve them.
Well, it's either a sign that you're gearing up to do great things or its a sign, you're not ready, and you get to choose.
No, of course, yeah. Well, being mentally ready is important to like, you can practice eight days a week, eight hours a day, and still feel nervous. You know the mental side is so important. And people are like, what do you do on game day to prepare for game day, and I'm like, I do exactly what I do on practice day. Mentally, emotionally, and physically, I do the same thing, because I do not want to show up on the game day and expect those things to turn on. Like, my self-talk is working at every practice.
My interpersonal communication with my partners is working at every practice. I'm trying to problem-solve and connect, not work on my physical craft.
I know you’ve worked a lot on, like, every moment is equal kind of thing. I definitely want to talk about that, but I'm also interested in … So one of the things I see a lot with athletes. Maybe prove me wrong, or tell me if I'm wrong. But I feel like a lot of great athletes have this, you know, let's say perfectionist, hard on themselves driven mentality when you're young, I think you're gonna rarely find somebody that's great that doesn't have that.
And I think that at some point, as we've been talking about, they learned that that's no longer serving them. But what I also see, and I'm wondering if you experienced this, and maybe you didn't get it because these are sort of bottomed out and they're nowhere to go. But up. But I feel like in those moments, when it's kind of time to shift, let's say, from fear-based motivation to more love-based, a lot of athletes, a lot of humans have a really strong fear of like, well, this got me to this level. And who am I without this, and I'm going to be like a lazy blob on the couch, not motivated anymore? And it's wondering if you've had that fear. Maybe you didn't. But I see that a lot.
Yeah, the hard thing for me is not in the application of self-love or just being there to compete, not necessarily win and dominate. The hardest thing for me is when I speak it out loud because it still feels softer to me. And I'm here to win, we're gonna win. We're ready.
And I still think these things that I do say these things as well. But it's also I have this other deep understanding thatI can't control anything about end result. And when I had a sports psychology session with Mike Gervais, he was incredible. He helped Missy and I win in London, and he's just, he's so dope. And I was talking to him about his anxiety, I feel within certain moments, for sure, remember this when I was in juniors in high school or college, like my whole life as an athlete I felt this way, where I was explaining to him a big moment or just anxiety, I felt playing in the World Championships.
And I was like, Hey, Doc, like, I just, I feel so anxious and everything, I feel a little bit tight. And you know, I'm using these words that are so confining and stressful. And he's like, first off, pay attention to the words, you're saying to me, like, Kerri that's gnarly. He's like, we’re in Hermosa beach. You're in Austria, and you brought that stress home to this office. Like the words you choose matter. And he's like, so in those moments, pay attention to the words you're choosing. And then he's like, try this. He's like, whenever you feel like it's a big moment, or wherever you feel like, there's a lot of stress, you do almost not handle it. Just say I'm here to compete. And for me, I feel like I'm a world-class competitor in any sport.
And when he told me that Lindsey, it was like, a weight off my chest off my heart off my mind, because I know, if I'm in the moment, I will rip your eyes out with respect to try to win, and just, I mean, that was a bad thing to say. But what I'm saying is that I will. I'm a great competitor. I know that right? Without any qualifiers. I'm a great competitor. And he gave me the permission to just compete because I've already done the work. So in the moment and the games, you can't be like, Oh, I wish I would have done this or, oh, you know, whatever. It's like I'm here to compete. Do your best. And that helped me significantly.
I love that. I mean, that's the kind of thing that brings you back to the moment which is what we're all searching for. It also reminds me of Brene Brown, which talks about like, I don't remember exactly how she says that but like how you talk about your thoughts and feelings matter. How you describe them actually influences how they are? You know, they're not just words.
No. I'm a very big believer in the law of attraction. What you focus on is what you invite into your life. Right? And like our every word thought action is momentum. So if you speak poorly of yourself, that's momentum going in the wrong direction. And you can speak neutrally or positively, that's momentum in the right direction. You know, and so those things sound true. They do sound foofy to me, but to me, they make you a killer.
And they allow me to live in the moment, which is where I'm at my best because I can't affect the past, I can't affect the future. I do that by my right now. And where did I choose to put my focus on is just it everything? I don't care what type of form or what type of human you are.
If you're in a funk, this is so funny, I've done this so many times where I'm just running into jerks all day long. And like, what is going on? And then I'm like, What is like, what am I thinking about? And my thoughts are stressful, and like, I'm grumpy. And I like you attract what you think about you know, so if you're in a bad mood or a bad moment, and you're running into things out in your life that you're not wanting, like literally take five seconds and think about what you've been thinking about that day. And you're like, oh, I deserve this. This makes sense.
Done like this cognitive-behavioral stuff, where it's like, you have a situation, and then you look at your thoughts, which leads to your motion, which leads to your action, which leads to results. Like, and then the results always reinforce whatever you're thinking about.
There’s zero discrepancies.
Yeah, the world is full of assholes. That's exactly what you're gonna see. You know, the world is full of something you don't have to say, I know you've talked about this too. It’s not like toxic positivity, like everybody nice all the time and everybody’s perfect. But you do get what you are looking for.
And you get what you're... I learned this lesson on the way to Tokyo, because like I like I'm just a student of Abraham Hick's law of attraction. And they say it's not what you say its what you're feeling on the inside. Because the whole earth is vibrational, right? And words, even though if it's the most positive words, if you don't believe them, if you're not feeling them, it's just words. And so for me, on my journey to Tokyo, with Brooke, everything was just hard from day one, like Brooke and I loved each other, love each other. She's wonderful. On paper, we had all the things, but vibrationally and emotionally, it was all just hard for whatever various reasons.
And no matter how much we talked about mindset, and like, we tried to problem solve together and focus on the good, it never panned out, because I think inside there was this fear, or these limiting beliefs, that trumped out words. And it was the first time in my life that I've lived that for a long period of time. And it's there for me to learn from and grow through, but it bummed me out because of Brooke's incredible. We could have been and should have been incredible together.
But there was something within us that held us back from exercising that on a daily basis. And it just, you know, it didn't work out for us. So it's not just words. It's the actual thought and you have to do work to get yourself into alignment with what you want. And if something's in the way, and you see it as like a big kind of mountain you have to climb it's like, accept that mountain with excitement, not with god if I don't get this today, we're terrible, or you know what I'm saying like, you can't defeat yourself on the way to greatness. It's ridiculous.
So I wanted to shift a little bit, but I think there are a lot of parallels. And I was thinking about what I thought, you know, I've heard you speak on a lot of different things and a lot of the mental stuff. And I was thinking like, what do I really want to talk to Kerri about? And one of the things that I think fascinates me about you is definitely the mental side, which we talked about a lot. And I'm sure we'll continue to talk about.
But also I think when people think about you having three kids as an Olympic athlete, your babies, your real goals, right, like, and they think about Wow, you were pregnant when you won the gold medal and they think about you had three kids, I think it four years or something and like the physical side.
And for me, I go back to like looking at, did you ever see Serena Williams documentary?
Really good, but also, and there was like the physical side of her having a baby and then there was like her coming back to compete and she was literally pumping in the locker about to go out and play in her first grand slam. As a mother and like, the mental and emotional pull that your children have, and the amount of psychological and emotional energy that it takes to play at the level you're at, is mind-blowing to me, like the physical is a lot. Don't get me wrong.
But in balancing kids and schedules and all that stuff. That's a lot. But the idea that you're able to do this and be a present mom, and I'm just so curious how you are managing to do it because what you're doing I'm sure in your 20s at least when I was playing professionally, I was super selfish. And then I have kids and it’s like well that's out the window. So now we got to figure out a way to like split myself in half, and I'm just, I'm so in awe of that.
And I just want to pick your brain. I want to learn. Ya know, you saw my two-year-old in here two seconds ago. And then you have to switch back and I believe, okay, no, I'm in interview mode, not mom mode, you know? How have you done that?
Well I mean A. it's messy and ugly and you have those interruptions that simultaneously melt your heart and frustrate you.
As soon as you need some space they probably won't give it to you, for example.
Exactly. Well, that's law of attraction because you want that so bad. For me, it's like, everything in my life is a choice. And it has been my whole life. Like, I've never really, I've never invested my time or energy or love into something that I don't believe in and that I don't want. And that's a blessing. I've always loved sports, I've always appreciated learning, I've always loved my family, like, my life is very simple. But everything's a choice. So when my point is when I was a professional athlete, and we chose to start a family, it was a choice. And I come from a huge family like I, to a certain extent understood what I was getting myself in for.
And to me, the way I framed it was, this is going to be so dope. This is like, two of my heavens combining. And I get to be part of everything that I've ever wanted, you know. And so that way of framing things was really powerful for me. And so, like, there are so many things like I am fully supported in my life. My husband is incredible, like, he's incredible, does not do it justice he is my teammate, he makes everything work, like we fill the gaps, like he makes me not feel guilty when I leave, I know my kids are in good hands.
Cuz that's the hardest part like I'm trying to figure out if I'm retiring or not. Because I can't leave my family as much as I have anymore. I can't, like my heart will fall out of my chest, I can't do anymore. So we need to do it a different way, if we do it and my husband's 100% on board to figure that out, travel the world together, like put his life on hold, but just to commit to this vision of us as a family winning gold in Paris, right? So we're having these conversations right now.
So I'm supported on the outside, it's a choice on the inside. So I'm willing to suffer, whatever I have to suffer, and then kind of just kind of aligns with, I think why I've had success in sports, in general, is that I'm always like, I've had the best partners in the world, I've had the best coaches in the world, I watched one of the best high schools, Best Colleges, like, I just find myself in these beautiful situations where Kerri the athlete and the human is supported. That's beautiful.
And then like for the hard emotional stuff that you alluded to the guilt, the separation anxiety, the one minute being a mom, next minute being on a podcast, next minute training for the Olympics, all of that stuff, I feel like what everyone in the same situation I am in is that their heart is just so in every bit of it. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like a soul calling for them to juggle all these things. And for me, I think as an athlete, like I'm okay physically in my craft, like, I'm better than average, obviously, mentally, I think I'm pretty sharp, but I think what makes me more special is my emotional capacity.
I really do. And it's hard to quantify that it's hard to put that on paper and explain that. But I think that's the difference-maker for me. And within every relationship, I've had, and with every pursuit I have, it's like, if I love it, if there's purpose in it for me, I will suffer anything to do it. The same thing with my marriage, I've been to hell and back with my husband. And we fight for what we believe in, and we don't settle. I don't settle on my pursuit for excellence, and for the Olympics or in volleyball, I don't settle for less my relationships, and my husband's the same way. And so we work and we keep going. It's hard as hell.
We fight. We fight for own perspectives with my partner. I fought with Brooke about how I thought things should go and she did as well and that to me is strength. But a lot of people don't do that. They just work hard. They don't invest their emotion or their mental. You know?
Do you have any like I always thing about, I know, I've heard you say like when you're fighting with your husband like you can't win kind of thing (when playing). And I'm just wondering, like when your kids need you, like on game day, because I know that you are that like tear your throat out type of competitor. Even if you don't want to say that loud. Which is amazing. Like, that's awesome.
But like, I'm wondering if yourself as a competitor, either shifted when you became a mom, or people probably don't ask this of guys, but I am a mom. And so I know that like that there is this pull, and some of that is hormonal too, right? Like a pull to your children and you had young kids when you were, they're older now but like, probably really wanted mommy. And like I'm just wondering how you shifted, like, even what you did on game days like to or what you do now like to get that space where you can turn on carrying the crazy competitor versus carrying the mom? Or do combine them.
Well, up to this point, it's like compartmentalization. So generally our family doesn't go on to like the world tour with me. So they're home, and they're well taken care of, and they're with daddy, and they're living their lives. And we touch base every day a couple of times a day, and you know, but I'm separate. And so I have my space, I have my time to prepare. And all these things when they do come on the road. It's like, it's the best thing ever. But about two hours before every match, I started to get frustrated, and like, I need space.
Obviously the mommy and the caring stuff never goes away. But when I'm in Portugal playing at a tournament, I do, I'm there. You know, when I trust, like, I have a lot of faith. I know who my children are with, my husband is the most incredible father ever seen. Like they're good. And I have to kind of leave that to God, leave that to, that they're good. Like, they're smart kids, they can handle stuff.
We all chose this together to a certain extent, we have these conversations, Mommy's going to be gone, we travel, my daughter goes okay mommy how many days. And if I say anything over like 15 at this point, she'll start bawling. And so it's just, and I’ll start bawling. It just kind of is what it is, I don't know it's just a commitment. And when you're committed, you have to commit through not only the good times, the hard times, and it's not sucking up the hard times, it's working through them and staying connected through them, which I first sure can be better at.
My husband and I were in marriage counseling and our counselor was like Kerri, you walk a million miles with a pebble in your shoe, meaning I can endure a lot. Because I feel like either I don't know if it's a worthiness thing, or if it's just how I was bred, like, suck it up, don't complain, because I had that in my upbringing, which I’m appreciative for.
But also, it causes problems. And my husband can take five steps with a pebble in his shoe and he's like, I need to address this, So my situation is encouraging me to grow and learn different mindsets, learn different ways of approaching challenges. And it's all elevating my life. So, you know, the pebbles are there for a reason. They're there to call your attention to something. And if you have the awareness of what you want within the situation, then you can work toward it.
Well, I think it's such a beautiful life that you built. And you were so intentional about, I heard you talk about this on another podcast, like the all the accolades in the world didn't mean anything without like the family side and the marriage and like, how you prioritize that and manage to combine it all like, to me the idea of being a competitor, and a mom is like the frickin coolest thing in the world.
It's so fun. Yeah, I just, I feel so blessed. And I don't want to give this perception that everything's easy. Like my husband, I for sure have been on the verge of divorce. You know, like, literally, and we talked about separating, we like I've been to hell, in volleyball, in sports, and in my life. 100%. And it's like those moments of reckoning where you choose, what do I want here is this relationship worth fighting for, on the court like, in order to be our best team, I have to have an intense discussion with my partner that we're not going to like each other for a while.
I'm saying so all of this is hard to add, the result that I'm living is so beautiful, like, our family is so connected, we're such a little tribe, my husband's pursuing his dreams, I'm pursuing mine, my kids are doing theirs I come from this fundamental belief that for each of us, our duties is to become the best we can be for ourselves, not for anyone else, because that's not sustainable, like it has to matter to you.
And because of that I can be a better wife, could be a better mom, could be a better athlete, you know what I'm saying, So it all starts with an inside job. And then you can pursue these dreams and you integrate them with your husband and your partner and your children and its beautiful.
We're opening up our certification right now, for mindset coaches, and I'm writing all these emails and doing all these things. And one of the things that I talked about, because someone told this to me, is, don't let your kids be your excuse. And I was like, that's so easy to do. It is so easy. And, everybody makes their life decisions and what they want to do in their career and stay at home mom is like the hardest job in the world, dad too. Like the idea that you are thinking about yourself, and what you want to do, so that you can not put that on anybody else. Like I think that's such a powerful place to be and it sounds like you and it's something that you keep going back. And it sounds like that’s happening right now with Paris.
Yeah. 100% That's why you know, you know for sure being an athlete and where you are now. It's like in order to be the best or to get the result that you want, you have to be 100% in. If there's 2%, maybe like, that's not a go. And so that's why I'm taking so much time because I want this final journey. If we do it, I want it to be joyful. I just wanted to do it for the joy of it.
And I want to win, of course, but I feel like I know that if I do it for the joy of it and show up, the results will take care of themselves. And the journey regardless will be so worth it and will serve my family, it'll serve me, there's something that I wanted to add to what you just said, Don't allow your kids to be your excuse. That also goes the other way. And I remember hearing Kobe talk about in an interview where he wakes up at 4:30, has a morning workout, comes home takes kids to school, has another workout, you know, like has lunch, has another workout. And then he goes to pick up his kids.
And he's like, it's selfish of me as a parent, to not have energy for my children to go to take them to the park, to do be on the floor of them and play them with their toys, just because I had a long day. So he's committed to his personal craft and journey. And then as a dad, and I felt that every day, you know, like you guys, I'm so tired. That's why you have siblings go play. You know. But like moving forward, I never again, and I know I will. But I don't want to say no when my husband wants to hang out because I'm tired, or my family is just kind of easy. And they'll love me regardless, you know what I'm saying so I just for all of the intensity and passion and consistency that I bring to my professional life.
I need to and committed to bringing you that and my personal life. Because that matters to me more than anything. And so that's my commitment. And that's my intention. And it's harder, because it's so much easier to say, okay, my child woke me up at 4, they climb in bed I didn't get a good night's sleep, I'm gonna not do this workout. I'm gonna give myself some space. When it's like, what I also know is that discipline is so damn important. And right, when you start making excuses, it just becomes easy to make excuses next time and the next time, but nothing you have to do this, you know, like things.
It's like if your child wakes you up, and you don't get a good night's sleep, like, sleep is so important. Eating is super important. But just see your day is not gonna look the same every time. But you can still have your commitments, be disciplined, and get everything done in a different timeframe. And not give yourself the out because of your children or whatever comes up.
I'm interested and we've talked about like how admirable it is that you've been able to do both and the difficulty of switching sort of mindset. But I'm also interested in how your children have, I don't mean necessarily in like, have the kind of enhance your game, even you don't even like of course they can enhance your life you love them, but I mean, like kind of, like for me as an entrepreneur, I always say like, my kids have been the best thing for me as an entrepreneur, because I can't eff around. Like, I don't have 80 hours to work. So like when I work, I need to get some shit done. So I'm just interested in from your perspective, how it helps you focus or helps you prioritize or give you a different perspective, any of that.
All of it. I mean, 100%, all of it. For me, the perspective shifts that I am more than just an athlete, I'm more than just my finishes, I needed that. That came at 30. And also, it also kind of allowed me to live kind of a certain death to a certain extent because I was pregnant for basically two years, and my boys are back to back. And the world went on without me. It's like I never existed in the volleyball world like, Okay, well, that's good to know.
Maybe my ego thought I was someone special, you're not like you're a special human. But time goes on. So that was helpful for me, and I think when I do eventually retire, that'll be helpful and help me adjust faster. I'm more efficient, I don't have time to waste, it makes me more discerning because I do not want to waste any time that I could be with my family on things that don't matter to me and are not going to serve our family.
So kind of created with Mike Gervais, our performance psychologist, like the buckets of priorities in our life. And for me, it's my faith for sure my family, my career, and my relationships. And so I just know that I need to service those things, for me to do great with these things. And that becomes a filter. And that all came on the heels of becoming a parent whatever you want in your life, make those your priorities make that your filter if it doesn't serve your priorities. It doesn't belong there. Maybe later and that's hard for me to say no to like I always want to say yes to be helpful, but that's made me more discerning. So and then the inspiration is next level.
My gosh, it's especially tough because they're older, I thought the hardest when my kids were babies, it's so much harder now. Because they're just so aware and like my daughter thinks it's I'm choosing volleyball over her. So it's led to these beautiful powerful conversations, and like, we had this moment with my daughter, I was leaving for eight weeks. Like, shoot me but chasing the Olympics, so a part of me is like, oh my gosh, so exciting part of me is like, devastated throw me in jail I’m leaving my children and my family for eight weeks. And they were going to meet me though after two weeks. And so on the day, I was leaving, we took a picture of my daughter in the picture, she's crying, and I'm smiling.
And she brings it up to me, the moment she sees me when they travel overseas, she does mommy, I have to talk to you. She goes the day you left for your trip, I was crying, because I was sad. And you were smiling because you were happy you were leaving. And I was like, Oh, baby girl it crushed me. And I was just so grateful that she had, like, if she kept that to herself, that could ruin her life and our relationship. So it just allowed us to have this conversation to be at now it makes me more mindful of the conversations I need to have with them. So they know where I’m coming from you know, and it's very mature stuff.
It’s super emotionally intelligence.
Oh, my God. I mean, she's so… are all of our kids are so on point that way. I think the old school of like sucking it up. It is what it is, that's kind of dying. And I'm grateful for it. I think a lot of greatness came from that. But as the generations go, we should learn from the mistakes of the prior ones. And we should elevate and grow and, and try new things.
And I think that's a new way of seeing the world, seeing competition, seeing the process and having a beginner's mind, and being like devoted in your heart, not just for the pursuit. Like, it's powerful. And it'll allow people to live their lives and their pursuits and more enjoyment, I believe.
Kind of a side note, but as we’re talking about emotional intelligence, I just want to get some parenting advice. But I feel like so much of what I teach my kids is to feel your feelings, right? And trust your feels and trust instincts. And I feel like fear often lies to us. Right?
We're scared of kindergarten, we're scared of the new gymnastics class, we're scared of getting interviewed, whatever it is, right? That it's a fake fear, because we're not actually in danger, right?
I'm just interested in how you're teaching your kids because we've been talking a lot about fear and fear and love and all those sorts of things. I'm wondering how you teach your kids, to listen to your feelings. And yet, fear can lie to you, or fear can also be excitement or fear can also be a good thing. Do you talk to your kids about that? I'm just interested.
You know, it's framed a little bit differently just because of the context. These conversations come up. I like the one thing that came to mind is, that our boys are running cross country and are usually teams for athletes across countries more individual, right. And my oldest Joey, who is my favorite athlete literally of all time, has what Jordan has, he has, what the greats have whatever it is, he has the intangible. He's twelve like take that with a grain of salt.
But I see that in him. And he was getting ready for this race, and he just expected to win. Like, imagine that pressure when you're 12. Every year you're supposed to win. And that's the truth in his mind. And on the outside. Everyone's like, oh, Joey's here, everyone loses. And so he got third in his first race. And I felt the shame in him. I felt it and I'm like, babe no, you kicked ass. You did. So good, right? Like, this is race number one, just whatever. And but this next race, he was, he's like, Mom, I don't want to go, can we go? Like, I don't want to race? Can we go?
And I'm like, no, babe. You’re okay. Just go out there, do your best run. And I tried to take his mind off of that. And I'm like, you're here, just you're ready to go. And he hated it. He hated it. And then afterward, we talked about, he's like, Mom, the whole time, I was thinking of tripping myself, and getting hurt, so I wouldn't have to run.
And I'm like, Oh, babe this is such an opportunity for you. Like we've all been there. Like, you need to understand that every single human on that line feels the same way. And just think about how you're framing this, so it’s in kind of those conversations. It's already talked about, you know, my son sometimes if he makes a layup, he feels shame because he thinks he should be perfect, it's easy to move a basketball.
Like, babe you have three people chasing you like you're dribbling a ball, you're 11 like, you're gonna make mistakes and fear is just a catalyst to change, is a catalyst to focus as we talked about. But one of my favorite quotes of all time is the truth of who you are is unafraid. And I just don't want my kids to use fear of failure as a cop-out to not try. That's kind of a nuanced hard conversation to have because I don't have the words it's more of a feeling. I just want them to have the internal feeling that they can handle what’s in front of them.
You are supposed to be on the team. You think it’s all gonna be smooth sailing, you just show up like that wouldn't be fun after he loves it, but it's like the transitional in-between moments when the anxiety is so high. That's when fear shows up. So I think it's everything we talked about just getting in that habit, that our default mechanism for the way we think and the way we frame these situations is I got it. I'm here. To do this. I'm built for this, that type of talk.
I love all that, like taking mental notes here. This morning, I got an email, do you follow Dr. Becky, on Instagram, I think it's Becky's good inside.
No, but I will.
It might be a little bit younger for your kid's age group. But the email she talks about today was, where kids are getting like perfectionist about the card they’re writing or whatever right? She talked about like, not telling them, it's okay to make mistake. And, you know, don't worry about it. Like, don't be too hard on yourself, which is, still an emotionally intelligent thing to say. But she said, Bring, like that sense of curiosity to it, like hi, perfect voice. I'm sure you're talking to your kids about how everybody experiences this, like, we all have that voice. That’s like, it's not good enough.
We have to be perfect. We can't fail. We can't get third. And like having like a curiosity with that voice and bringing awareness so that you can reframe it. I think that's exactly what you're saying. But I just, I liked how she put it.
That's huge. I think curiosity is the antidote to getting through hard situations. Like, oh, what is why is this in front of me? Or what am I going to lear here? Or why am I? You know, I think that getting curious about things is so very important. Also, it's like, so if you have a kid who's writing a letter, and they want to make it perfect or doing art, they want to make it perfect, and just not.
And they're gonna, like give up or they're gonna complain about it. And it's just kind of walking through like, Okay, how's it feel to submit this piece of paper? Like, is it you know? And if it isn't, it is, and they'll turn it in, and they'll get a bad grade, like, okay, maybe it wasn't or whatever it is, like, so much of it is how does it feel? You just said that to your brother in that tone? How did that feel? Not good. do better next time. Thanks. So I think to me, it's like a level of self-awareness, to our responses to these things that allow for new choices to be made. And then use curiosity.
If you can choose to volunteer. If you could choose to see something as an exciting challenge rather than a mountain you have to climb. I'm such a big fan of quotes because it helps me frame my mind. It's not the weight you carry, it's the way you carry it. Right? In every situation, you can carry the weight of the world like this, are you like I got it doesn't make it. It makes it easier mentally but doesn't make it physically easier. But it's just the Constitution about things.
Yeah, I love all that. Do you have a couple more minutes? I have one more question.
I wanted to talk and I know you said your game day is similar to your practice days. But I'm just interested in, so much of what I tried to do for my clients is like, take mindset and mental training and actually put it into actionable things. Right. And not just like, once in a while, people have workshops about being mentally tougt, but like, I'm interested in what Kerri Walsh Jennings does.
And of course, a lot of it is within your physical training. And maybe some of you don't even know what you're doing. But I'm wondering what you do from a mindset training or a mental training perspective on game day on a nongame day, like, what are your routines, and like actionable things that you do for your mind?
Well, again, I want this to be a lifestyle, I don't want it to be a game-day thing, or once a while, that wouldn't be a habit. I want another quote, that when things are chaotic, and life is stressful, we fall to the level of our training. So we all have a default.
So if in my thinking, my default is to have a problem-solver mindset, to have a curious mindset, to have an optimistic mindset, then that's a great default mentally, to reinforce that, I want the benefits of meditation, I have to meditate. If I want the benefits of having clear thoughts, I have to journal. So I meditate, I journal, I move every day, everything that reinforces a clear mind. I do that every day. You know, and it's not always like, I wake up at 4:30. And I meditate like sometimes I do three deep breaths in the car before, you know in between things.
And I set an intention, and I'm good there. But I prioritize my mental health, and my emotional health 100%. So for me, I know that when things when I'm not living in an aligned way, I feel frustrated. And I just want I want to do more work. So my challenge to myself is in those moments to have the awareness to slow down. And I'm able to have that awareness if I meditate. If I have a problem or something that's bugging me, I write about it because when I write about it, my thoughts become more clear. After all, I'm putting them on paper. You know, it's like one extra step of thinking.
So I do these things consistently. I'm relly doing better at leaning on my support system, like my husband, talking things out with my husband, generally I like to internally problem solve. But I have greatness around me. And I want to lean on those people. And so I'm doing that more and more, which is fun. I think one of the best things about being human is that we're capable of handling a lot. I think one of the worst things that we tend to isolate when things get hard. And isolating, it's like, you're just you're facing all your demons and everything on your own, when you do have a support system, you know, and if you don't have one, you can create it type of thing.
So those are little things that I do, I prioritize my sleep. Because that allows me to perform in every way mentally, emotionally, as a mom, as I want to feel good in my body. So sleep, nutrition, everything, all these little things that are so ancient. And so like common sense, I prioritize them, and they allow my world to go.
And you do the cold water stuff, too, right?
I do. Yeah, we have a sauna and a cold plunge. And I love it. I love it with all my heart. Like it's so incredible.
But also Lindsey, I just think the bottom line is that if you want to affect change in life, you have to do these things every day. Right, like maybe not even three times a week. You do. You got to do it every day. And then again, it's not like working out seven days a week. But it's like being mindful of your body seven days a week, you know, meditating for 15 minutes every day. But it's like having that thought and taking your breath. You know, I'm saying and all of that those little things create ripples that change lives and change, like how your life looks on the outside as well.
Well, I was like trying to get people to like, commit to 10 minutes a day. I mean, it'd be great to have other, deep, deep breaths here and trying to get coaches to do it in timeouts and like these things that are already baked into our in between points, or water breaks or whatever like trying to get these things, the reps in regularly. But also, if you could spend 10 minutes, journaling, or breathing or whatever, like, that can have like monumental effects on somebody's life.
100% Everything Lindsey could be a meditation. Like when I'm doing the dishes like it just be where you are, and other be where your feet are, Mike Gervais. Like, just be where you are entirely there. And you have everything you'll need will come to you. And the anxiety will go away. Because it's just the anxiety does not live in the moment.
It lives in all the other crap that is coming, maybe. So yeah, I think if I could ask everyone in the world, if I had one favor, I would say. Like, even you know, I think the science says 14 minutes of meditation, daily changes your brain rewires it. But if you can start with 10 slow deep breaths like that's good enough, you know, you're gonna see some changes, and you're going to add some more, you know, stop, stop eating after 8 pm that could change your life.
Go to bed by 10 that could change your life. And these are hard things to do. It's shitty ya know, but discipline equals freedom. And if you want freedom of feeling good in your body of being a high performer of be consistent, then you structure your life to support you in these ways. Don't allow excuses. My favorite quote of all time is “Do not argue for your own limitations.” Right? Like, that's it. I catch myself doing that. I'm like, Oh, it's so terrible Kerri it’s terrible, and when I notice people doing it, I just I know that I can't do anything for you. If you're gonna argue for your own limitations.
I see that so much when people want to start their businesses as mindset coaches, and they start finding all the reasons that they can't do it.
Yes, No, exactly. It is okay. Like your words matter. You're creating your future right now. You're throwing all these obstacles in front of you. Because your mindset is such dogshit, excuse my language it's going to be very hard for you, harder than you ever thought, harder than it needs to be because you're choosing to think this way. Right? Be solution-oriented, get excited about what you want, like you're gonna figure this stuff out.
Your such fountain of wisdom, I just love it. That's what the world is all about. There are a billion things out there on YouTube, but we got to go into ones that impact our lives. Tell me what you're up to. I know, you haven't figured out about Paris. Tell us about P 1440. How about that.
So P 1440 my husband and I and our co-founders started a couple of years ago. We've had many iterations already in four years, but now we're focused on servicing the juniors community. And in my mind, what we're building to be is the go-to resource center for all things personal development, on and off the court, right volleyball is our heart. It’s our kind of platform on which to develop ourselves.
And so we have live events and then we have digital events in programming that support the athletes with anxiety, I get calls and emails and Instagram DMs every week, Kerri, my daughter is suffering from this, you know, major anxiety for this, you know, point me to something and so if we can be kind of that vetted, trusted place where people go to support themselves on the court that they can take these tools off the court like that would be just incredible. And we're doing that. So it's really powerful p1440.com. App platform 1440.
And just a little insight into the name. In marriage counseling, we were talking, and we found out that there are 1440 minutes in the day, that's all you get. And for me before, you know, that I tended to waste a lot of minutes and my husband was like, Babe you give everyone everything, your minutes with us suck. Like they're less, they're less quality. And Mike Gervais was like, you guys need to take better care of your 1440. And so as we created this volleyball property, we wanted to be more holistic, more universal.
And we wanted to start with young girls, realizing that it's the moments that count, we all want that starship, we all want that perfect game, but it's the moments that are gonna allow you to get there. So that's our company.
Absolutely. A final question. I ask everybody this, but what's one thing you would either tell your younger self or one thing that you tell people right now to do to help change their life to get to be a high performer?
Oh, my hell, there are so many things I had this question answered perfectly last week, cuz I was just in that mindset, but it changed. This is gonna sound hard, because it took me 43 years to get to this point, whatever you're doing, do it for the joy of it. Right? So I was listening to Abraham Hicks. And she's like when you meditate, don't do it for the ascension, don't do it to become something you're hoping to be, do it for the pleasure of it.
So when I'm training, instead of saying I'm going to practice from now on, I'm saying, Well, I'm going to play because that shifts things. So if we could do… if we can make our decisions on purpose, and largely do things that are meaningful, and purposeful to us, and then do those things for the pleasure of it, our lives will transform. So if you figure out how to do that, let me know. But that's the journey I’m on.
Well, I mean, I love I've been thinking that was so funny, like, obviously, the law of attraction, this is what's coming up, because I've been talking and thinking a lot about joy and bringing joy into things. And in particular, bringing into the hard things. I think athletes do that pretty naturally. I mean, that's, we kind of like the suffering in some ways, right? Like, that's part of it. So how do we bring joy into all of it?
Well, knowing that joy makes you a killer. Maybe that'll do it. A podcast with Andrew Huberman. It's, it's science. You perform better when you have fun. Having fun to me, and my game face is like, I'm gonna crush you.
And my words are almost the same. But it's joyful. It's not focused. So I think just yeah, having that be a goal. Like if you're so anxious like I started calling out things that I love. Oh, I'm playing this woman. Oh, she's so cute. Or she was so kind to me that one time that I just bring love into the equation, or playfulness. I tell a joke to my partner, and all of it makes me free.
Yeah. I love every single thing we talked about, I just can't wait to go back. And everything you said was so on point. And I so appreciate the time. I know how busy you are. And I just, I love how vulnerable and how much you have grown over all these years, and how willing you are to share all that. It's just Kerri, it's amazing. I'm so grateful to you.
Well, that's very nice. And I'm a poop show. Like, let's just get that out there. But I really care. And I like personal development. Feeling growth as a human is my favorite thing. And then sharing the ways that I got there. The clothes, the people, the podcasts, those are my favorite things as well. So thank you for the opportunity. You lead a good show, Darlin and your people are in good hands. So I'm proud of you. So good job.
Kerri, you're the best. I hope at some point, you'll come back and share more wisdom. Just give me a call. All right, thanks, Kerri. So there you have it, guys. Wasn't that amazing? I mean, I felt like I could have been on with her for another hour just talking about all this stuff. And I just love that we talked about so many real things. Michaela Schifrin and the Olympic Games. We talked about Carrie being pregnant and being a mom to three young kids and still playing at a high level and how she does it on a day-to-day basis. We've talked about flow and being able to be present in the moment and her evolution as a volleyball player.
I think as she's matured and has gotten all this experience, she's kept digging deeper into her mindset. And the game within the game, if you will. And the cool thing is she can put words to it and she can share it and I just learned so much from this interview.
So if you love this share it, she has so much wisdom that I hope everybody gets to hear. Anybody that's trying to be awesome in their life and find a high-performance mindset to benefit from this. So please simply share it. Rate, review us if you haven't already. And guys we have some great interviews coming up. So thanks for being on this journey with us. And bye for now. Have a great day.